Shanti 
Jun 5

Hello,

I am in Switzerland.. and am at the Gate.. would love some midwifery. Do you do skype sessions?

Ilona
Jun 5

Hi Shanti,
Thanks for message. I don't do Skype sessions, but everybody keeps asking, so maybe I will, but at the moment I prefer email or forum. Whichever works for you.
Kind regards.

Shanti 
Jun 5

I have a difficult time with words plus am lazy.. and lets give email a try.   I will begin tomorrow.  Is this ok for you?  Is there anything I need to know?

Thank you

Shanti 
Jun 6

Good morning.  It simply begins.

There is much that has been undone.. or that unravelled.. the concept of no choice.. of the I.. yet there is anger.. mostly directed at my four children.. it is intense.. and it hurts at times.. it is so much different than before.. but there is still this idea that they are 'mine'.. I am responsible to feed them.. take care of them.. raise them.. there is still a sense of separateness.. and not.. confused mostly.. and some fear.

Thank you

Ilona
Jun 7

Hi Shanti.
Of course a mother will take care of children, there is no doubt about strong connection and love.
That is how life is- in nature too, mother cares about children. It does not mean though, that she owns them.  Does your mother own you?

The anger is a response to triggers.  If you hurt your leg and somebody kicks it- naturally it will hurt and there will be a response, reaction, perhaps anger. It hurts, because it's wounded. So there is also a reaction when emotional wounds are touched or pressed on. Until they heal and no longer triggers reaction.

This process is about seeing what is really going on in your experience. It does not fix anything, nor change how things are. Only lets you see for yourself, by yourself how it all works.

If you are looking to fix something or get rid of anger, this process is not about that.  If you want the truth, no matter what and are ready to question your most precious beliefs, then we can work together.

On the scale from 1-10, how ready are you?
What is it that you are looking for?

Sending love.

Shanti 
Jun 7

Yes...it more feels like the mother thing is too much.. so much responsibility.. freedom is hard to find.. kind of reaction.

I am ready. 10.  I am done seeking.. looking has begun.  I doesn't think and I think that I am either at the gate or over it.. I see that there is no I.. there is however still a sense of self.. mother for example.. or person who needs/wants to make money to pay bills.

When I first approached you.. I think I was looking for some kind of answer.. it is not like this anymore.  It feels more like a settling in.. and I want to make sure.. that sense of self lingers.

Gratitude for you.

Ilona 
Jun 7

Hi Shanti. Thank you for email, I see you are right and ready. So you say that I does not think, can it cross the gate? What is the I that you are referring to?

What are the expectations at this point? Does the sense of aliveness, being got to cease? Are you waiting for some state or big experience? It may or may not happen and it isn't a necessary part of process. The shift may be so subtle, that it may be hard to notice.

What is that sees that there is no I?

Write soon.

Shanti
Jun 7

What is it that sees there is no I?  phaw.. I have no idea.. eyes.. looking?  It has been subtle.. prior to the shift.. there was a lot of anger and resistance and tantrum throwing.. A LOT.. and then.. noticed.. hmm.. I doesn't think.. drink.. eat.. sleep.. I is a though just like all the others.. there was laughter.. and holy crap.. is this it.  Cool.

And then.. the children and contraction and the idea that something has to stay.. like the laughter has to be permanent to something that could care less...the sense that I HAS to be here even if I see that it isn't.

In my immediate experience.. there is noone here and yet a sense that I will find her.. if I just wait long enough.

Shanti
Jun 7

have you ever gone looking for your keys or something.. sure you knew where you left it.. after awhile of looking.. you experience frustration.. irritation maybe.. damn.. I know they are here somewhere.. and then you find them in your pocket and you laugh out loud.. yep.. that simple... yet.. not totally.. it seems like layers are peeling away.. effortlessly.. and it SHOULD be hard and deep and whiz bang boom.


Ilona
Jun 7

Sweet! It should be hard, haha, but yes, so simple.  It's like looking for home while being at home. No step journey. Finding home is just a noticing that you have never left home. :)

About the children, is it possible to stop caring about them? Are they separate from you? Is there an I in each of them?

Much love.

Shanti 
Jun 8

No not possible to stop caring about them.  There is no I in any of them.  Are they separate from me.. hmmmm.. seems like it.. at the moment in my current experience.. they don't even exist.. so this IS strange.. there is a sense that they are somehow separate...but not.

loving you.

Ilona
Jun 9

Separation is only a thought.
Take a look with senses, each one individually.

Is there anything separate in hearing?
Is there a gap between hearer and the sound?
Is there anything separate in the view, when you look with eyes closed and open?
How about touch, feel the touch and see if there is a gap between experienced and experiencer?

Look at nature, spend some time watching the movement of totality, is there anything incomplete or independent of everything else?

Write to me soon.

Much love.

Shanti 
Jun 9

Hearing happens.  Viewing happens.  No separation between hearer/hearing or Viewing/ Viewer or feeler/felt.. no gap between experiencer/experienced.

In nature there appear to be separate 'things' birds IN the sky, clouds IN the sky, wind IN the trees or ON the skin, trees IN the ground and the sky or surrounding landscape.. all of it being experienced TOGETHER.

In my home there are my children.. my husband...they appear to be separate.. but they are NOT separate from experience.. without other words.. they exist because I do.. the experience OF them would not take place without me experiencing them.

There are thoughts that this just doesn't make any sense.. this appearance of separation.. the apparent others.. and some settling of this 'knowing'.  There is less and less the sense of actual separation.. phaw.. so many ideas of what I thought not experiencing separation would be like.. so many fantasies.. falling away... good.

Big love.

Ilona 
Jun 10

"Hearing happens.  Viewing happens.  No separation between hearer/hearing or Viewing/ Viewer or feeler/felt..no gap between experiencer/experienced.

In nature there appear to be separate 'things' birds IN the sky, clouds IN the sky, wind IN the trees or ON the skin, trees IN the ground and the sky or surrounding landscape..all of it being experienced TOGETHER."

It is only language that makes the experienced appear separated. When you see the bird in the sky, there is a movement of shapes and colours, labels come up "bird", "sky", "in"..
Can you experience a bird without sky? Outside of sky (while looking up)
It's just like saying that grass is growing and assuming that there is something called grass that does the growing.  It's one undividable whole, which can only be divided by words, that are believed to be real things, objects.

"In my home there are my children.. my husband...they appear to be separate.. but they are NOT separate from experience.. without other words.. they exist because I do.. the experience OF them would not take place without me experiencing them."

Yes. Good stuff.
Here is an article for you. http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/trick-of-language.html

And there is an exercise in this post.  http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html
Do it properly and write to me after, what you noticed, how description of what is happening affect what's happening.

Love back to you.

Shanti
Jun 10

I will write tomorrow.. I think.. sick littles.  Earlier I felt I had a lot to respond.. it went away though.
Thank you

Ilona
Jun 11

Hope you are feeling better.
Sometimes the process can be very intense and body can be going through stress.  Disillusionment can be accompanied by purging- intense burning in the body and flu like symptoms. It's all part of it. It will pass.  Just let it all be ok.

Sending love to you.

Shanti 
Jun 11

Thank you.. good to hear. Physically.. the last 8 months or so have been interesting to say the least. I am a mover.. I train the body a lot.. because I like too.. not to achieve anything.. but it has been hard going these last 8 months.. catching almost all colds and viruses.. not just me.. my whole family...sleep is good.. when I get it(up with sick kids)..and the last two months.. nightmarish dreams.. but not really.. otherwise peaceful sleep.. no spinning.. just sleeping. Your words are like a salve.. letting me know that this experience is just happening.. no one to blame.. no where to look to make it better.. Ironically.. at the moment.. the 'sickness' feels like a relaxation.. with a bit of resistance or better said RESIDUE.. showing up physically.

I would like to share a bit of my process with you.  I am 37.  Two years ago I went to the School with Byron Katie and the veils really began to drop.. prior to that experience.. I didn't know anything about nonduality.. enlightenment.. awakening.. nadda... or that thoughts aren't real.

I did that work for one year.. everyday.. almost all day.  Then, like most things, it dropped away.  Life felt easy, effortless, it was nice.  Then.. well I don't know exactly what happened.. but it felt like I feel out of that experience.. there was a series of events that took me into the deep dark uglies.. real bad.  There was deep depression and sickness.. followed by rage and pissed offedness.. it was intense.. and it is only in the last two weeks that it seems to have subsided.

During the darkness I began to become a facilitator for the Scott Kiloby Inquires.. and I just got more and more pissed off.. I had a feeling I was getting so close to seeing 'the holy grail' whatever the hell that was.. and I just got fuckin pissed and fed up with LOOKING.. looking at words, images, sensations.. and looking for some self.. and not being able to find it.. ever... and thinking the looking was going to kill me.  There is a huge difference between looking and seeing.. this I have experienced.

Then a very dear friend of mine sent me your book.. on whatever day it was that I contacted you.  I had been feeling like I needed support of some kind, someone to help me SEE what I was already seeing and experiencing...honestly.. someone who would validate what I was/am experiencing.. like a home.. until I really could see I am home.  That person...right now.. is YOU.  Deep gratitude.

Language is something I see through quickly at the moment.. and I could fall into a space where communication would get really weird.. but seemed to have overcome that in short order...meaning using I, you, we, us, me is strange but useful.  Verbing is all that is really going on.

Many things you have said I have experienced.. but then not SEEN.. if that makes any kind of sense.  Yesterday.. as I read your book.. reading stopped.. all desire to read such books.. left.  Movement away.  funny.

And just now.. as this email was being written.. there was movement to prepare lunch.. there was noone doing it.. it was just happening.

I have been pointing for others for a long time.. I just didn't know that was what I was doing.. and now.. the happenings.. seem to make some kind of sense.

I was most definitely thought there would be some big boom.. I notice so many misconceptions and misunderstandings...not the least of which being Shanti.. she is the confusion, the compromise, that created to fit in, out of love...yet meaningless.  Applying this to my children has been so intersting.. they too are a story.. without the story they just are.

I have no idea if this is making any sense, thank you for reading so far.

There are silly questions still about time and money.. but they come and they go.. as if I cannot grab onto them at all.. falling away.

Loving you

Shanti  
Jun 12

Seems to be smoothing out.. whatever that means.. strange.. and totally normal some how.. so much stuff falling away.

Thank YOU.. me..I..it..everything..life..happening!

Ilona  
Jun 12

Thank you so much for sharing your story, it's quite something.
I'm so happy to hear that you are relaxing. Yes, the shift is so small, subtle, ordinary and yet all starts to look different. Where you thought that you need to get home, there is noticing, that home is here, now, always.

How are you feeling?
Yes, falling can be intense, just allow all to pass.. Holding on is not advisable. :))

Lots of love.

Shanti  
Jun 13

How am I feeling?...hehee...as if the fan is slowing down...the stirring the spinning of mind.. how to explain.  It is as if something is alive and living.. thoughts cannot be held onto.. no matter what.  Anger happens.. irritation happens.. overwhelm happens.. and yet it doesn't.. it is WILD.  Like the last remnants of firecrackers.. pop.. pop.. fizzle.

Perhaps this is the settling in...the sinking in.. the falling away of stuff.  It feels somehow stable.. constant.. where it used to come and go.. it seems to be constant.. not able to be unseen ;).

Deep..flowing.. intense.. desire.. excitement to SHARE with others.  That is how Shanti expresses.. she is a sharer.. but this.. well this  is different.  This experience is for everyone.. noone is a guru or special.. all the same.. the experience belongs to noone and to everyone.  Hope this makes sense.

Would love to connect with others.. to point wherever possible.

Thank you for ALL that you are.

Shanti 
Jun 13

There is something interesting.. and meaningless.  This way of looking.. I sucked it all in.. or out.. or whatever.. is so darn simple.. it seems like inquiry, religion...confuse the whole thing.. like they are totally unnecessary ..and yet.. suppose they are.. until they are not.  It all drops.. completely.. when seen.

no such thing as self realization.. hehehee.. unless seeing there is no self is it.. no such thing as enlightenment or awakening.. just looking.. pointing.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Ilona 
Jun 13

Oh, I'm so happy for you! It's really that simple and with seeing seeking drops.  Falling, sinking starts and it has no end. Just different levels of intensity.

I can see that shift has happened. Can I ask you the final questions? If you are ready of course.

Yes, it's amazing to notice, how this little misunderstanding causes so much confusion and suffering. I'm very happy to hear that you have the intention to help and point to others.
It's a great gift to pass on.

Much love to you!

Shanti 
Jun 14

Thank you! I am ready.

I will be off the grid from 5pm tonight until late Sunday.

big hug

Ilona
Jun 14

Sweet! Here they are :)

Shanti
Jun 14

I will write Sunday night or Monday.  Thank you.

Ilona 
Jun 14

Looking forward to reading it.  Have a great weekend,
Love.

Shanti 
Jun 17

Hi honey!  It seems there was some effort to come here.. now.. and write this and isn't that just interesting.. and to whom exactly ;)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

NO..nonononononooooooo...nope..nadda..and it is..strange..a bit disorienting..but somehow familiar as well.


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 

Shanti began when there was an innocent kind of ownership.  Yes Shanti I will be happened.  It feels like an agreement, whatever that means.  A sweet precious beautiful self..yet completely meaningless.  I don't know who she is but I am in love, no longer able to believe in her I can love her deeply..same as one can love the story of santa and magic and unicorns.  The self is like camaflouge, a way of fitting in, making sense out of nonsense.  The self is a collection of stories, ideas, images, sensations sort of glued together in the attempt to give life meaning.  Funny things is..no self 'over here' no self 'over there'.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The difference is a calm balance kind of experience, shit still happens just as before but it isn't personal at all.. even when it feels like it or appears to be.. it isn't.  Wobbly on my legs.. a bit disorienting.. and at the same time is seems like.. ya.. well DUH!  And no doubt, it feels more.. for lack of a better word.. real.  And there seems to be a lot of settling going on.. falling away of stuff all on its own.. or as if.. simple inquiry has come to life.. life happening.. life living.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

Wo.. not sure.. soo soo much happened in a matter of a few days.  One was a video of Elena talking to someone and she said the sentence 'Can I think'.. it hit be between the eyes and the falling really began, the next moment I emailed you.  It had already begun.  Then in our emails.. there was a moment where you asked me 'Can you stop caring for your children?' that hit it.  It was one of the last illusions to actually Seeing.. the fear of losing them somehow, once it was realized that I could not do different, fear left and seeing happened.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

hahhahaaaaa..this one was a fun one.  It is seems so convincing.. that someone/thing is the master of the universe.. heheheeee.. and NO no choice, no intention, no deciding, no controlling.  Examples, I was eating dinner in a restaurant alone yesterday and I noticed, there was noone doing anything.  Hand cut pizza, raised it to mouth, mouth opens, chewing, tasting, swallowing.. so bizarre.. noone doing it.. noone at all.

I have also noticed that hand will move, sound will sound and then thought will happen taking credit for the movement or sound...labeling it...none of it is true what thoughts say.  Movement, seeing, sound and even thoughts simply happen.. to noone...which is so strange to write :).

6) Anything to add?

Thank you.  I think I could write forever about all the stuff that has happened since seeing.. time has done a funny thing.. as has space.. and interesting noticings when seeing gets bent in a way.. like when there is an argument with one of my children.. they appear very big.. I have to laugh out loud.. it is so strange.. I notice than that the patterns are dropping and this bending is part of that.. when my children are giants or once my husband a midget.. I cannot play along anymore.. it is so silly.  (now this might all sound a bit crazy.. but there you have it.)

I felt wobbly.. but it feels more.. not solid.. no not solid.. but perhaps clearer with each moment.  I am having very strange dreams as well and energy seems to be endless even when tiredness is present.

Thank you for you!  And, How can I help?  And, is there a place to talk about these weird things happening with others?

Loving you

Ilona 

Dear Shanti,

It was delightful to read your answers. I can see that you see :) my heart is full of joy for you.
Yes, there is a lot of settling in, a lot to clear up, a lot to recondition. And that takes time. This falling of old beliefs happens whether you do work on that or just rest in being, the process takes care of itself. Sometimes it is intense, sometimes it's gentle, but there is no landing, only falling deeper and deeper into peace...

Could I put our conversation on my blog? I can use your name, or initial or whatever name you are comfortable with. That way your process can be of help for someone else. It's like a giant wave rolling :)
Once it's on my blog I can ask other guides to see if they have any questions for you and if all is clear, I invite you to the groups. There are many groups at LU and you can too start guiding :)

If you would like to take any personal info out, no problem too.


Much joy and love to you.

Shanti 

Ilona!  Share it.. all of it.. this one always has been an open book...just really noticing there is nothing to hide.. nothing personal.. nothing to be careful about and I appreciate you asking.

I will answer any questions from anyone you would like me too.  I might like to be a part of the groups and a guide.

Thank you for your movement as kindness, much has been seen.

Loving you.

Shanti  

I have really loved our exchange and having you in my heart always.  Thank you.

Ilona

I was walking and thinking of you.. It's so sweet to connect. I too enjoyed our exchange and will put it on the blog today or tomorrow.
It's really my pleasure to meet you and be part of your journey.
<3


*photos used from
 https://www.facebook.com/brookeshadenphotography

As I communicate with many people, I get asked for help to stop suffering... People write messages to me, saying how much they suffer, how unbearable that is and how much they want to make it stop. So I felt to say something about this.

I know how shit that feels. I really do. I felt horrible many times and all I wanted was to die. I used to cry and suffer. It used to be happening periodically and that's how I saw life- bits of sweet happiness in between feeling of not enough.

I wasn't depressed in general, apart for a few months after the process of deconstruction started, but in general life sucked. There was a constant background feeling of not enough, being not good enough, seeking for relief. Some days strong, some days not. Expansion - contraction. I did not like contraction.

Just like breath, it was happening: in and out. Right now, chest is expanding and falling back in even rhythm. Naturally.

Suffering is something that nobody wants. And yet it's here. What to do? How to get rid of it? Who can help? Hello!!

And if you are trapped in a vicious loops of darkness it feels so hopeless and alone. If you are looking for exit sign, here it is.

There is no sufferer.

None. None at all. Same way as there is no Santa. It's imagined.

You think you are suffering and this is the suffering. Yes, thoughts that tell story about suffering is THE Suffering. It's a chain of thoughts about the me that is suffering. But where is that ME??

There is a story about a me that is tortured. Thoughts say that there is.
But let's go down from the head into the body for a bit.

How does suffering appear in the body? It's a contraction. There is a sensation of tightness or emptiness like a hole, whatever description, does not matter. But bringing attention to sensing rather then thinking about it, lets the tension start dissolving. If you keep focus on feeling, just letting it be there, just watching the raw energy without naming it, it starts dissipating. Test it.

And what is behind the tension?

Take a look for yourself:
Is there a feeler? "Yes, there is- its me"- thoughts may say, but without thought, is there a me? is there anything separate in life from life? Is there a me in the body? If so, where is it? Can you touch it? Smell it, taste it? Can you hear it with ears or see with eyes? How do you know that it's here? It seems to be in the head behind eyes, it seems.... But is it there?


See, me is not an entity that lives in the bag of skin, not a soul having human experience, its not a separate avatar that is navigating it's way through life, not the narrator of the story, it's just nothing there! Empty. And it's not bad empty of good empty, it's not an end to a little me, it's just nothing there! Don't believe me, take a look.

The sufferer is not there, but there is a story about suffering, right. And heavy unbearable feelings too, isn't it? What's up with that?- you may ask.

Here is a turn around. On one side there is a suffering me on another side there is acceptance and peace. There is a flip from saying no to saying yes.

The sensations in the body, contraction only gets stronger if its willed to go away. If you want to get rid of it, it feels even worse. The key is to notice resistance. Just notice that there is something that resists something. There is frustration and tension. Locate it in the body. Feel it, let it be ok for 1 minute and 23 seconds. Watch it, make friends with it, feel it fully, openly, just ... feel...


That's it.

Yes, to whatever is here. So be it. It is here already.

Tension, when noticed and allowed to be here starts melting. See that for yourself. Notice when resistance arises and you say yes to it, what happens?

Another thing, if the feelings are so intense, that it's unbearable, learn EFT technique, it's really simple and effective. There are plenty of videos on YouTube showing basics, learn it and then just use it. It really works. (Emotional Freedom Technique).


Yes, suffering is seen as something negative and unwanted. And it's ok. It's ok to want to drop that and feel at peace. It's ok to relax. You do not need to believe what thoughts say, you can direct focus on sensations in the body. Then there is no need to try to stop the voice from talking. It's ok for it to be here too. Just move attension to senses.

When all is welcomed, all is flowing smoothly and sweetly. When resistance shows up, and it will, just like breathing in and out, notice it.

Don't try to change anything, just notice. Rinse and repeat.

The truth is, resistance, frustration is a friend. It may be impossible to even think this now, but if you start noticing it, you will see where it leads. Resistance itself is not meant to be resisted. Otherwise it locks into self-strengthening loops. Some say there is a path of least resistance and when resistance melts, all that is left  is surrender. This is the path of saying yes to whatever feeling/ sensation comes up.

Noticing frustration, watching how the mechanism works and asking questions- what is behind it? What is here that feels threatened? What is here that wants to hold on? What needs to be protected and from what exactly? Listening closely and noticing sensations in the body is the key to releasing stuckness.

When it's seen, that there is nothing here that needs to be protected, the mechanism no longer gets triggered in the same situations. But don't expect a happy ever after, there is nothing permanent. Life is a movement of expansion- contraction. Things happen and they will keep happening. The peace is here when there is no resistance to what already is.

So first step to the end of suffering is saying yes to it. It's ok to feel shit. And it's ok to want to end it.

Second step is to really get curious and interested to see for yourself that sufferer is not there by looking behind feelings and sensations. Sensation comes up, look behind it, is there a feeler?
Can it be found in your experience? Or just in thinking? Is it here now?

Third step would be to investigate what is this word 'me' and where it points to, can that "me" be found? Or is it just a story ABOUT me, like a story about Santa?

And most of all be kind to yourself. The love you seek is your own love to yourself. By saying yes to feelings and sensations a door opens. The habit of thoughts about suffering start loosing its grip.

In short, it's not the suffering that you want to get rid of, but see for yourself, in your experience, that there is nothing there, where you think that me, the sufferer, is.


If you found this helpful, please share with a friend.

Bob
May 8
Hi Ilona

Hope you are well and had a good break in Lithuania.  I'm keen to begin being guided by email by you and wonder if I need to do anything to get it started?

Warm wishes
Bob

Ilona
Hi :)
Yes, I'm back and we can start.

Tell me what are you looking for, what do you expect to find and what do you think that must happen?
Just explore all the expectations around this process. Make a list of what you think that should or should not happen. What do you want to happen?
Best regards
Ilona

Bob
May 8

Hi Ilona,

Welcome back!

Some reflections around the expectations are that I would like to see 'me' as a story and not as the real centre of the universe thing I had thought it was. I imagine that things would carry on arising and passing away as before, but without the identification leading to freedom.

I already look to find the me and find no one, instead I find vast open space, like a mirror...however then I go back, (& forget to look) to believing in me which is tight & judgemental. What I want, is to join the dots of the play of 'isness' as a continued experience. I hope then that I can see the judgements etc as a story and nothing to take seriously. I imagine this will open me up to compassion for others as I will see their selfishness and judgements as a deluded attempt to be secure.

I imagine 'my will' to be replaced with a love or presence or life force will.. Part of me (I know there's no me or parts but..) thinks liberation will be more meaningful and part of me fears it will lose all meaning.

These are a few initial thoughts,

I look forward to yours..

Ilona
May 8

Thanks for writing. i can see that your expectations are not too far off and we don't need to stop here, lets take a look now where you are.

Let this thought in and play with it.
There is no separate self, no i, no me at all in reality, none as in zero. there is no manager, controller, doer, thinker, witness, no centre to which experience is happening. all there is is life flowing freely and that includes the story too. me is not a story, the story is ABOUT me. 

tell me, what reactions, resistances, fears you noticed, was there anything that was saying "yes, but... " does anything feel threatened?
how did your body reacted to this thought?

write what you notice as you notice.

much love

Bob
May 8

This is an immediate response...so as I read what your write I feel a lot of excitement at the directness and certainty of there being zero! Like I want to jump.. Then I read the bit 'me is not a story, the story is about me' and feel confused.. This brings me into my head to work it out...ah ha, I have turned me into a story so I still am, another attempt to me...So, if I am not even a story.......then I feel excited again and want to jump...then I reflect the story is about something that isn't...but there is a story, and now I've gone round in a circle wanting to be the story.

So I feel mostly excitement like I'm on the brink of a cliff and want to jump (in a good way) but that I cant quite let go!

Ilona
May 8

Nice!
Ok, so where is this me? Can it be seen with eyes? Touched? Heard? Smelled or tasted?
Or it only appears in thinking?

How do you know it exists?

Bob
May 8

No senses has a me behind it.. Just hearing, just tasting, just touching, smelling. Thinking has a strong I am story behind all of this but as you say the story is About a me...I get it, and yet frustratingly I act like I exist...

I will keep reflecting.

Thank you, please keep the challenges coming.

Ilona
May 9

Ok, you say you act as if you exist. How would you act if there was no you and never was? Would anything need to be different? Would reactions and responses cease to happen? Would life stop?

Lets look at the story. If you look around the room slowly and focus on some objects, notice his labelling starts and story gets narrated. Where focus goes story follows. Are you in control of this process? Can you stop thoughts from appearing? When you see with eyes, can you see the story?

Write what you notice :)
Much love.

Bob
May 9

Morning! I kept waking up last night looking for the me and noticing things like feeling warm with no me feeling that....

If there was no me... Life would go on but I wouldn't know about it! (Is my initial response) to your first questions.  I want to know about it all! And yet there was still feeling warm for example so there wasn't the nothing I think I fear!

Re: the who is smelling: When I got on the bus last night being in the flow of it all just happening a woman got on and sat behind me and smelt of fish. I noticed how the belief in I came in strongly with aversion and I tried to see the story arising but my body still felt tight and aversive. I guess that was arising too, I just me'd that too.. Or the story was about fishy smells and a me not liking it....?

Yes true. Where focus goes, thoughts follow. Endless! I can see images in my head of the story but not on solid form. I  don't have control of the thoughts and associations when I look except by looking in a new direction and new thought then arise.

Surely though I can choose to be kind and generous say, and influence positive thoughts arising. (Or vice versa negative thinking leads to more negative thinking) But not guarantee....Who is choosing?

Over to you!

Ilona 
May 9

"Surely though I can choose to be kind and generous say, and influence positive thoughts arising."

Is this true?

Where do thoughts come from?
Is I a thought or a thinker?
Can you choose just happy thoughts and close the flow to "negative ones"?  Can you stop thoughts from appearing for half an hour?
Can a thought think?
Can a thought do anything?
Can thinking be switched on and off at will?
Investigate this and answer each question in full.

:)
Much love.

Bob
May 9

OK, I have just meditated.. Answers below.

Surely though I can choose to be kind and generous say, and influence positive thoughts arising.
Is this true? Thoughts and felling are different but influence each other don't they??

Where do thoughts come from? Space/nowhere

Is I a thought or a thinker? A thought! This one got me, I had a flash of, oh shit! I is just a thought, I saw it and felt excitement/fear..

Can you choose just happy thoughts and close the flow to "negative ones"? No

Can you stop thoughts from appearing for half an hour? Cant stop negative thoughts coming in. But can choose to focus on positive images/thoughts which leads to good feelings.

Can a thought think? No

Can a thought do anything? on its own level no, but can lead to a feeling or action

Can thinking be switched on and off at will? the focus can be changed but not stopped

Now I will go to work...the key things i will continue to turn over that feel important are: I is a thought /& I is a story ABOUT me, (not I am a story)..that sound good?

Ilona
May 9

Yes, there certainly is a connection between thoughts and feelings.  But is it up to you? Do you influence thoughts? Or is that just another thought?
Do you choose what reaction thoughts trigger? Or reacting happens same way as an itch and a scratch?

"But i can choose to focus on positive images/thoughts which leads to good feelings."
-Nice thought.

"Can a thought do anything? on its own level no, but can lead to a feeling or action"
-Or perhaps it's more a description, labelling of what is happening anyway.  Take a look.

"Can thinking be switched on and off at will? the focus can be changed but not stopped"
-Are you the focuser? Are you in control of focusing? How do you do that?

"Now I will go to work...the key things i will continue to turn over that feel important are: I is a thought /& I is a story ABOUT me, (not I am a story)..that sound good?"
No, I is not a story. Story is story, I is just one word in it.  And story is about the character, when narrated in first perspective, we use word I instead of name.  Look, there is no story if its only one word. I. :)
Looking forward to hear from you.

Bob
May 9

Yes I see reaction follows thought. And I see that to think I influence thoughts is just another thought!

A thought happens then a feeling can happen (i'm not sure if always a feeling follows a thought) A thought doesn't DO anything. 'A thought labels' is just another thought!

The change in focus is another thought. I think it's me doing that which again is another thought.

And yes I isn't a story it's when it's filled out with detail it's a story. I guess I could invent someone else and call them i. That would be as mad as calling this thought I. Like a tree. It's green and leafy....and it's me.  And It is as true as Bob is me.

So the rub is without a me what's the point? What's the point of joy without an enjoyer.

So that's my evening reflections.

Sweet dreams!

Ilona 
May 10

Does there have to be a point? Causeless joy happens. Just like birds singing, what is the point in that? What is the point of wind? Rain?

Here is an exercise for you, do it and write to me what you noticed.
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

Much love


Bob
May 10

Hello again....Thank you....this is good.

To add I am before experience feels tight and contracting. To just experience is freeing and expansive....looking at a pigeon with a hurt foot, feeling sad for the pigeon....this is much more relaxing and allowing and true than I am looking at the pigeon, I am feeling sad.. The' I am' pulls me back, distances me from the actual experience...
And feeling sad without the I am, does not annihilate the me in the way I feared it would, in fact its truer to say I am everything. sadness, bird, tree thoughts, openness...its all just happening within something endless and open...

Ilona
May 10

Sweet.
Ok, look now, is there a gap between experiencer, experiencing and experienced?

Check in normal everyday situations and activities.
Is there a you to which life is happening?
Do you exist as a separate entity?

Describe what you see.

Bob
May 11

In the now I can see that there is no gap between experienced, experiencer and experience.  I can see no separate I. And no me to which life is happening.

I can sustain this sometimes and sometimes not. Last night I lay in bed doing the exercise and saw the non separateness. Then a spider appeared above my head on the ceiling and I tried to keep the seeing but had to get out if bed and keep myself safe. I couldn't then get into the true perspective in the moment. The same earlier today. I had a breakfast in a cafe and a family were loud. I was judging them in thoughts and feeling reactive. I was noticing only reacting (not I am) and only judging thoughts... But my body felt tight and separate and again I couldn't re enter the true perspective.

Once one see's through belief in an I. Does reacting stop or is it always in a bigger perspective? Do you always remember there's no separate I? Like the father Christmas metaphor. I never forgot he wasn't real once I knew. But it does seem like I go in and out if remembering and forgetting I does not exist.

Ilona
May 11

"In the now I can see that there is no gap between experienced, experiencer and experience.  I can see no separate I. And no me to which life is happening." 
Cool.

"I can sustain this sometimes and sometimes not."
What is this I there? One with power to sustain or not.

"Once one see's through belief in an I, does reacting stop or is it always in a bigger perspective?"
Well there is no self already and reactions happen. Why would that change?
Reactions happen because of triggers- unresolved emotions, deep rooted beliefs. That has got nothing to do with seeing or not. Until there are wounds there will be pain when touching them. Question is- are these reactions yours to control? Are they happening to you?
Is there a reactor?

"Do you always remember there's no separate I?"
I don't need to remember. It's obvious.
But in the beginning mind looks in every situation for confirmation. It's just clarifying itself.

"Like the father Christmas metaphor. I never forgot he wasn't real once I knew."
Yes. It is clear that Santa was a fantasy. Same with separate self.

"But it does seem like I go in and out if remembering and forgetting I does not exist. "
Should this not be happening?

Sending love.

Bob
May 13

It's biting. I see the reactions. The wish for continuity. This is all dancing in the play of it all. Who then is this I that wants something wow and profound to happen? I'm worried it won't change anything! Yes who is the Me that's worrying.

I just got your book delivered this morning.

Ilona
May 13

There is no who. It's just a useful word in communicating. But, in reality there are no subjects. Just movement that is happening by itself.

You are looking for something that does not exist. Me, I are labels. Not doers. Can you find what is happening not on automatic?

Sending love.

Bob
May 14

No not in a graspable way.. If noticing no me happens then it seems another story is triggered sometimes trying to justify or confirm its existence.

Where's the will coming from if its not from 'me'? If thoughts cause actions to happen then it almost sounds fatalistic.

Ilona 
May 14

Good questions. Is there a free will? Does the path need to be determined? Can't it be spontaneously arising codependent with everything else. When conditions are right, movement happens. Are you choosing what's happening? Think of some past big event, could it have happened differently? Could you have made not that choice?

And no there is no no-me to see,  no self = zero.  Take a look, is there a centre that experience happens to? Is there perceiver separate from perceived, to which perceiving is happening?

Much love.

Bob
May 15

Thanks.
Since doing this looking I have been in the zone as it were a lot. I particularly experience it when counseling clients, like the role is clear. to get out of the way, drop into presence and it all happens better. Its not even like 'i' drop away, it just is. Hard to describe really. But its more effective than when the story of me is trying to do good work.

I was explaining this no self stuff to friends the other day and one didn't get it that there was no controller inside doing it all and I found myself explaining it from my experience and encouraging her to look and not find, as I did the same. I think I am kind of coming to see the experience absent of self can continue with the stories of self going on at the same time. When I am counseling mostly there is no story of "I" going on so thoughts validate this as more authentic... Don't know if any of this makes sense.

RE: a big event. I wanted to move but was not earning enough to make it safe to do so. I chose (OR CHOICE HAPPENED) to take a leap of faith and do it anyway (its worked out more that OK). I could though have taken the safe (seemingly) option and stayed in town i was and been miserable. I guess going back I can see a domino effect of taking leaps of Faith occur (I wont bore you with the details) and a domino effect of landing there anyway. And a Domino effect of getting some work in new town... It seems impossible to work out if I made a choice or if choice made itself? Am I on the right lines?.. I could chose to eat cheese and get unwell or I could choose to cut it out of my diet and be healthy. OK, there is no I choosing, thoughts feeling and body things happen and changes happen so this leads to (if certain causes and conditions are in place) x happening, which implies no choices really get made doesn't it?? ..Which doesn't feel right? If I didn't make a choice to be friendly sometimes I would be grumpy instead, are you saying that friendly would happen without choice...confusing!

Maybe I don't need to know the answers to let go of what isn't there anyway.
Sorry if its a bit rambly!  

Ilona 
May 15

"Since doing this looking I have been in the zone as it were a lot. I particularly experience it when counseling clients, like the role is clear. to get out of the way, drop into presence and it all happens better. Its not even like 'i' drop away, it just is. Hard to describe really. But its more effective than when the story of me is trying to do good work."
Nice! yes to being in present and just flowing and great, life is presenting situations for you to look and share.

"Maybe I don't need to know the answers to let go of what isn't there anyway."
what is it you know 100% to be true?

much love.

Bob
May 16

Yes it does seem like there is a choice to take this next step. Also there is always a host of possibilities. It sounds like your saying there's some existing next step already. I can get 'I choose is less true to choosing'. But not there's a fatalistic next step. I guess my 'I' is attached particularly to will and I feel threatened by that not being mine. It's hard to imagine anything other than fate or nihilism! Yikes. It's humbling having been practicing for 15 years!
Also, I can look for me and not find it. As they say lose your head and gain the world. This is a real and profound experience. But I forget and think there is a me. You say with LU, once no self is seen there's is no going back.
How on earth are these people in your book getting it so quickly?

What shall I do next???

Ilona 
May 16

I'm not saying that there is an existing next step, but there is knowing what to do next.  It's arising within situation. Interdependently with everything else. Nothing to do with nihilism.

Are you independent from environment, choosing by yourself? Or is it life moving where it's choosing to go, independently of your desires?

Are you the doer? Is there a doer? Is this doer I? Right now, are you choosing to read this or reading is happening? Are you choosing to breath, or breathing is happening? What is happening by your will alone?

Write what comes up.

There are no dates in the book, for some it was quick, for others not so. Longest I worked was over half a year. It's unique for everybody, no set time. It takes as long as it takes to get ready for that one look, that is the crossing of the line of no return.
It's not the case of remembering, that there is no me, but knowing where to look in order to see that in every situation.

Much love

Bob
May 18

Hi Ilona

I am really turning the question of am I independent if my environment over. I know the answer is no. And I see evidence and yet such a strong feeling if I am! I write this on route to Birmingham having had the breaks just almost not engage and smoke pouring out of the back wheel. Could have been Nasty. So a good example of not being in control. And yet....I have breakdown cover and a plan and a sense of being in control! Sorry I'm being a hard nut to crack!

And I had the most intense dream last night of a treble disaster. A break in in progress, a v bad accident with injured people outside and homeless mother and children suffering below me. The feeling was horror and inaction due to the amount of emergency s at one time.

So this is what's come up with no doer doing it but a strong story of one. X

Ilona 
May 19

Oh yes, it is a strong story and may be a hard nut to crack. You can bang your head against the wall or you can give up trying and just look.

The belief that we are in control of our lives is deeply rooted.  And yet, it's just a belief, it's not solid and does not need to be hard to crack.

Lets try this-

You have never been in control. Life lives itself and moves where it moves, not because you make it move.  Thought that you are in charge is also part of what is happening.  But don't need to trust what you've been told, you can take a fresh look, forget all you know for a minute, and see, in real life, is there a controller? Is there a manager? Something that makes life happen?

What sensations in the body arise? Whatever comes up, welcome it. Thank it for coming. What is behind them? Is there anything that feels threatened and needs to be protected? If so, what?

Look deeply and answer when ready..
Much love.


Bob
May 22

Hi Ilona,

I haven't replied till now as I wanted to make sure I really looked and came back with an authentic reply.

I have looked and looked...Stories emerge that question things....I look again, anticipation feelings, disappointment feelings, all based on stories of wanting a wow experience. I see that as another story...I keep looking, no me but still the story of me but I see this as another story. I have 2 images, one of being like a fly in a web and the more I struggle the more I am stuck...and of holding a flashlight, shining a light looking for me and not finding one and then thought 'ah I'm close then' and see this as a thought so turn the flashlight to what's holding it, nothing there but a thought still calling from somewhere so I shine a light there too, anxiety. Another image; like being blindfolded and people keep making noises so I turn to the noise but the another noise and I turn to that and so on and so on... There is no person blindfolded, no flashlight holder and no fly! But still a looking to make sure!

Help!      :-)

Ilona 
May 24

"I have looked and looked...Stories emerge that question things....I look again, anticipation feelings, disappointment feelings, all based on stories of wanting a wow experience."

That's very common expectation that there should be some wow experience. But it's just a drop of belief, nothing wow, the belief may drop very gently and almost unnoticeable or can come with a big aha, who knows what it's like for you.  It's important to examine this expectation and leave it. See how it is. It already is.

"I see that as another story...I keep looking, no me but still the story of me but I see this as another story."

Story is not going anywhere. It's only seen for what it is - -a story.  Not reality. Not how things really are, just a description of a point of view.

What is here, happening underneath the story? What is here when you look with eyes?
Is there an experiencer outside experience to which experience is happening or all this is one and inseparable happening?

http://podcast.liberationunleashed.com/2013/05/lu-meeting-with-ilona-may-2013/
This is a recording of the last meeting, may be of help.

Much love.


Bob
May 24

Hi Ilona,

I have listened to the discussion, thank you. You are very patient and kind with participant who spoke most.

I get this LU, a subtle shift has happened but not massive, and yet it has meant I am not needing to search, that is what I was getting at with the fly in a web metaphor. I see the search has kept me trapped.

Life happens, and sometimes violations happen in response to other things and sometimes actions happen too. And stories may go alongside or this or not. But there is no controller or manager, its all just happening mysteriously. The interesting thing is life is more engaging not less. 'I' feared I would become passive if this were true but creativity is life....yes its all one inseparable happening and vastness is behind the story. Lots of things are, but ME is not one of them.

I was pretty close to this I now see, but had appropriated the now moment of no self, of capacity for everything, and given it a story which ended in 'now I have to remember this and join up the dots.  If a volition to walk along the seafront enjoying being capacity for everything arises, then that's nice, buts its not ME that's in in charge or responsible for making it happen, phew what a relief to drop all that responsibility!..  I now see 'I' am not in charge of this. This opens up trust in the natural arising of things.

Ilona
May 26

Hi Bob,

Thank you for message and sorry for delay with answer, I've been busy with all kinds of stuff.

Great to hear that search has ended! Woo hoo!
Would you say that you are ready for the final questions? Once you answer them there maybe some other questions popping up or I can invite you to LU community in Facebook.
Much love.

Bob
May 26

Hi Ilona,

I'm not sure it feels like an end but a beginning of opening up to the mystery...I know you guys say you can only go through the door once and actually in the language you guys use, I went through it when I noticed there was no 'me' from a visual looking over a year ago and everything radically changed then, and it has been working itself out in a way since then, thankfully I was drawn to you which has done 3 important things: 1.shone a light on the story that attached to that experience, 2: to the unhelpful and unrealistic nature of looking for wowness to make it authentic, and 3. normalizing that thoughts about Bob continue.

So I am grateful for this unstitching and clarifying, I love the simplicity of the way you guys teach.

So fire away your final questions!

Love

Ilona
May 27

Hi Bob.

Sweet! Here they are :)
Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.

Bob
May 27

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. There are plenty of stories about me, but no existing entity of I to be found. never was, always just a long old story.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 
separate self is images of a Bob imposed upon experience and then thinking this is real. so as i sit here typing I can see an image of how I might look if another person were looking on, this is unconscious mostly and unquestioned. so though = I am sitting here typing, informed but the image that I see in my mind. Same with thoughts = "I am typing". Thoughts are real, feelings real, images real, typing real, but the conclusion of this = ME, not real, just an inherited belief . A big collusion. Once established the false delusion of I needs to be safe and protected, and on the story goes with all the judgements and comparisons that go with it.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
The differences I mentioned yesterday. I see stories as stories not as me. I don't need to see the fact that the same old stories continue as evidence to doubt the seeing. For example last night I had trouble sleeping and had lots of thoughts going on. I saw this as thoughts going on, like a thunder storm that eventually passed. Before It would have undermined the seeing because of ideas of how it should be if it were authentic (just openness and peace and love). It has validated the moment I first 'saw' (over a year ago) clearly the truth of no self and it has helped see the unhelpful add on of the habitual seeking story ' I must maintain it now'. I have clearly seen how my 15 years of searching has kept me trapped like a fly in a web! I have to let this settle and see what comes of the Buddhist practices I have been doing. Any developing practices is now see as futile and trapping and even addictions. I came in expecting/wanting even a lightening bolt and what I got was ordinary, this is it! phew! relief!

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
Maybe I was wedged in the door when I began writing to you. I saw clearly there was only vast openness in the place of where I 'should be' but I hadn't learned to see the me stories for what they were and so appropriated the experience to some extent and made it fit into my progression plan. The first seeing did have a wowness to it, but as it wore of so did my faith in its authenticity. So I have also seen through the gauge of wow as another story. Maybe I wanted to go through the door with me! Impossible!

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
Life flows. It is more true to say I am everything. Its not all out there (or in here). sense experiences, feelings, thoughts...its all in the same vastness happening. so in a way the question is irrelevant. From a more relative level, its mysterious. without an I the way things works is turned on it head so I don't know how things happen. I need to let his all settle and allow the mystery to reveal whatever it reveals. Creativity is! what to say...all the minutest details of the complete interconnectedness, who can say how things happen with so much chance of them not too. Digestion happens as does breathing, sleeping. The implications are yet to be seen. My dreams seem to be doing the freaking out bit in terms of assimilating all this, lots of out of control dreams.

6) Anything to add?
Thanks you for committing to seeing this through with me. I appreciate that this is freely given and recognize that you and Elena are having an incredible effect.

Ilona
Hi Bob.

Thank you for answers. I see that illusion of I has been busted. :) yes, and stories continue, that is quite fun, when they are no longer taken seriously.

Are there any doubts? Anything else you would like to address and look with me? This is just a start of exploration, and there is so much to explore. Now when I is seen to be empty, you can look the same way at everything else. The looking does not end, it deepens. :)
Much love.

Bob
May 30

Hello Ilona,

Yes I can feel the beginning nature of it and after a week of crazy dreams (of loss of control and then grief!) things settled today and I can notice the thought labels not sticking like they were.. Life feels different, more open to possibilities/connections/presence....something like that. So no doubts that are worth taking seriously just thoughts trying to stick.. If things come up I appreciate being able to contact you, thank you so much.
Be good to be able to connect with others of facebook, I guess you'll invite me.

Much love & gratitude!

Ilona
May 30

It is delightful to read your answer. Big smile here.
Yes, I would love to invite you to groups, there are so many people sharing, it's such an alive and growing community.

Could I post our conversation on my blog, it may be helpful for someone else. And then I can get other guides to look through and see if they have any questions. Could I use your name or initial, whichever feels comfortable for you.

Much love!

Bob
May 30

Ok.

Ilona
thank you Bob!

Sunday

Pallavi 
Hi Ilona, Thank you for accepting my request. I have been looking intensely for the past few days and I think I know what I'm seeing conceptually, but I'm not sure how far I see it. Would you be able to help me?
I have not read much, just started looking due to personal experiences. I watched an LU video on YouTube and have been looking since.

Ilona
hi Pallavi,
thanks for message. yes, sure i can have a chat with you. what is it you are looking for? what is it you are looking at? what do you expect to find, see, experience?

Pallavi 
I am looking to see things as they are. Without any filters, without thoughts. For example, I look at a pen. I'm looking at the pen and looking at the pen is happening to me. But the fact that 'I'm looking' is a thought, because 'I' is a construct, its an identity it gives itself, therefore Looking just happens.
As for what I expect, I've heard stories about other people getting enlightened and they come up when I think of what I expect, but I know they are just stories, like what the 'I' creates everyday. What I expect is nothing but to see things as they are. I don't see a difference between me, or another person, or even a piece of paper. These are all labels, an illusion. Experience happens, and life is. Fear, anger, friendship, these are all labels to reinforce and strengthen 'I' through years of socialization and conditioning. 'I' is a thought, a result of people saying that you are you, and the result of you creating stories to reinforce a separate identity.

Ilona 
does experience include thoughts about experience?

Pallavi 
The experience is the act. It happens according to the flow of nature. Currently, any experience, lets take laughter, gets its identity because the I calls it laughter, it associates it with happiness and so many different labels until the act itself is sucked into a big story. The I then decides when to laugh, under what conditions to laugh.
Experience can't be described- there are just different labels to give it identity for meaning making. These are all thoughts. Once the laughing happens, there are thoughts about the 'laughing' because I has given laughter this name and its function.

Ilona 
This is theory. How about in practice, right here, right now, what is happening- that is direct experience. And it includes thinking. Watch now.

Pallavi 
Its not there. I can't see anything in particular when I just see. Oh! I'm trying to see 'things' when there's nothing to see!

Ilona 
yes.
see things as they are is very simple. you can not see what isn't.
is there pallavi in the room?

Pallavi
No, when I see, I can only see, and I'm not able to see anything. When i just see, there are no thoughts. Just seeing.

I can't see Pallavi, and so I don't have a thought of Pallavi being in the room.

Ilona 
Is there I in the room?

Pallavi 
No

Pallavi
In seeing and hearing, there's nothing. Just seeing and hearing.

Ilona 
how about touching, tasting and smelling?

Pallavi 
For touching, to be honest, I cannot feel anything. There is no difference between me touching any particular thing. There is no hot or cold or anything else. If I see 'touching', then I call whatever part of my body that is doing the action as touching. Touching becomes a thought and I'm aware that I'm touching. Otherwise everything is just like a part of the body.

Same with taste. For the past few days, whatever I put in my mouth tasted the same. There is hunger, and there is eating, but no differential taste. And no idea of satiety. Just instinctive eating and finishing. Today for the first time at dinner, I tasted. I recognized different tastes.

Smell is smell. Its like seeing. When I just smell, there is smelling. That's it. No particular thing to smell.

Ilona 
Nice. Now look at feelings. Is there an I in sensations?

Pallavi 
By feelings, if you mean emotions, then yes, there is an I in them. When I now look at things that have hurt me, there's some sensation in my body. I am unable to recognize fully the reason for the hurt or the reason for the story until I actively tell myself. Even then, recognition is for a few seconds, and then gone, but fear remains for a little longer (I think? because my heart pounds and my breathing is irritated).

Ilona 
There are reactions to triggers. Is it I? When something hurts, is it I that is hurting?
Is that sensation, feeling still there if you don't call it I? Take a look.

Pallavi 
There are reactions to triggers. Is it I? 
The I has attributed, out of habit, this sensation to the trigger and called it hurt.

When something hurts, is it I that is hurting?
The I says it hurts. but when I see, The I doesn't exist. So hurt doesn't exist either.

Is that sensation, feeling still there if you don't call it I? Take a look.
There is a remnant of the sensation, and I forget why it came but the sensation remains even after. It has been there for the past few days. Though gradually decreasing in amount over time.

Thank you so much for doing this Ilona. You're welcome to leave questions for me. I'm going to catch some sleep now and will get back to you with answers tomorrow. Much love.

Ilona 
Hurt is there, it is felt. But is it I that is feeling it?
Sleep well

.......................................
Monday

Pallavi 
There is no I. There is just feeling.
..............
Hi Ilona, I got in touch with Otter Rivers in the gate forum and I told him that you're already guiding me. He said he's happy to help if you're busy, otherwise that its best I continue with you.

Ilona 
Cool, we can continue.
Look if there is I in thinking. Is I a thought or a thinker?
Do thoughts come from I? Where do they come from?

Pallavi 
Thoughts are just coming and going. When I think of I as a thought, it comes as an after thought. But when I'm thinking there are just thoughts. I is not thinking, there is just thinking. Thoughts don't come from I, I don't know where they come from.

Ilona 
Take a look!
Are you in control of thoughts? Can you stop thinking for half an hour at will?
Do you know what next thought will be before it comes?

Pallavi 
I'm not in control of thoughts, and I can't stop thinking at will. Even the thought to stop thinking at will is a thought. I don't know what the next thought will be. thoughts come when I see 'things'.

Ilona 
Is I a different thought? Does it come from different place?
How about me thought?
Can a thought think?

Pallavi 
No I is the same as other thoughts. Me is also the same thought. Based on the situation, when we see ourselves doing something, we think I and when something happens to us we think in terms of me. And a thought cannot think. But how is it that the I thought is strengthened by other thoughts? Why does that happen? There are other thoughts, but not all are strengthened the same way. The I thought cannot choose to strengthen itself because it is a thought. Is it because we see 'I' all the time?

Ilona 
No, you do not see I, you assume it is there. But there is no separate entity I that is in charge and command. It appears so and that is an illusion.
Try this exercise and tell me what you learned.
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

Pallavi 
Yes. I mean that by trying to see I (as a specific entity) we see I. When we just see, there is no I.

I did this exercise which you have written about on my own three days ago after seeing a quote- 'the seer remains'. I tried to see from the seers point of view from all angles. Seeing, being seen, the seeing of the seeing and being seen. I tried it with touching and listening. And in all three things till yesterday, I was trying to touch 'something'. Yesterday I realized if I just touch or listen without trying to listen to something, there is only touching and listening, nothing else. I knew that the 'something' was a construct. All things around us, I saw the different ways in which they were constructed. Like even a table or chair. We call this thing table or chair and give it a function. I realized this with bodily functions like breathing as well. The I doesn't breathe. Breathing happens. Breathing becomes a part of the construct of I, because we tell ourselves, I breathe. But we don't breathe, breathing happens. In all ways, the words I and me are just fingers used to point to the moon. We confuse them for the moon itself. I and me point to experience, they are not the experience itself.

Ilona 
Ok. So do you exist as a separate entity?

Pallavi 
No
I feel emotional  I can't even think of things to see anymore, I feel like giving up but I'm not able to

Ilona 
Is there I to give up?

Pallavi 
I don't know I can't even think of I. I just feel hurt, and sadness and pain
There no I , there's nothing, just feeling of hurt and pain

Ilona 
Yes. Welcome the sadness and pain. Ask them if they want to leave.

Pallavi 
I went through a sudden break up last week. I cried and cried about suffering and getting sucked in. I cried for it to leave me. I said its ok, these are just thoughts. After a million things that came out of my mouth, which every time I said something I knew it was a lie but I also knew that the mind was going through an ordeal. All that it thought was real wasn't. So suddenly. Memories of the break up come, and when I'm looking don't stay, but now I just shouted and screamed and released everything. Did I just mask the pain with lies? I can't even find an I to lie to. Everything is just like a lie. There are certain lies which give comfort and certain lies which don't.

Ilona 
Yes, the lies are masking up the pain.
Having enough of lies is a drive to finding what is true.
You can welcome the pain and just feel it fully. With no reservation. Without labeling what it is. Just raw energy passing through.

Pallavi 
Yes, I'm doing that. But memories are fresh. Triggers are around all the time. I cried without knowing what I was crying about until I encountered a trigger.
It made me cry more, but there was absolutely no difference in the physical pain after the lies.

I'm sick of the lying. I still see everything as I lie. There is no relief from that. I need to drop the belief in a lie.

Ilona 
It's a stage, it will pass. Keep looking at what is true, what is obvious already.

Pallavi 
Yeah I'm just trying to stay away from the triggers. When I don't see them, everything drops. Even the idea of the trigger. I approach it again and then it hurts again. There is distance to everything? If that can be said? I'm in that state now, most of the time, unable to pay attention to words, sentences. Do you want me to get back to you after a few days? Do you want to ask more questions?

And by unable to pay attention I mean, accord them with any meaning.

Ilona 
Just let whatever wants to happen happen.. Write to me tomorrow, rest today. Just let whatever is be ok. Say yes to whatever comes up, don't try to hold away triggers, invite them closer instead.. Give it all welcoming space to pass through. All is well.
Sending hugs.

Pallavi 
Thank you

Pallavi 
Whatever comes, leaves, if it let it be  

Ilona 
Yes

...............................
Tuesday

Pallavi 
Nothing ever happened. There just is.
The present moment. That's all.

Pallavi 
Dear Ilona, it feels like the looking has stopped. I'm not really involuntarily seeking anything anymore, just trying to give love to my triggers. There's momentary pain at random times, but I'm just constantly giving love. Everything feels very normal.

Ilona 
Sweet. Keep on that, giving love releases them.

Pallavi 
 can you tell me about the gateless gate?
is this called seeing through the illusion of a separate self?
Or rather, to rephrase, is this seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Ilona 
Yes. Seeing in experience.

Pallavi 
Ah
yes I've been just accepting everything that comes without labels, and releasing love
Not consciously, rather welcoming whatever comes with love

Ilona 
Is there a you that does that?

Pallavi 
Thank you so much for your time Ilona!
No, At times I get lost in the illusion, but when there is feeling, there is feeling, and it goes the way it comes, there is just welcoming with a happy heart
And every time I get lost, there is a snap

Ilona 
So can you say that yes, it's clear that there is no separate self/ I/ me?

Pallavi 
I have seen this. There is no separate self. Even last night, I had a dream, where I was fighting with someone, and my physical self tried to be present with it and it vanished in a pop, because it had never happened. that's when realized, nothing ever happened, its just the present moment that exists.

Ilona
Yes!!!

Pallavi 
There is no i , me, you, life happens as it does
The rest are all labels and constructions
And they start becoming meaningless

Ilona 
Nice !!
So is experience happening to a body or body is experienced?

Pallavi 
Body is an identity given to I. Experience happens to the body, the body being experienced is just the I.

Ilona 
Take a closer look. Is body experiencer?

Pallavi 
No body is not an experiencer. Body is a construct. Experience happens, in life, in the flow.

Ilona 
What does label body point to?

Pallavi 
The I. Body becomes a part of identity of I because we are told this is 'your' body. Otherwise there is no difference between us or any other labeled thing. Everything comes from nature and is returned to nature.

Ilona
Look deeper. In your experience right now.

Ilona 
Identity is assumed. Is there something that identifies?

Pallavi 
The label of body says that whatever boundaries are the so called designated boundaries of body. So when we touch with body in mind we are always touching 'something'..when we just touch, there is no feeling, no difference.

Ilona 
With eyes closed, can you find boundary of body? Is there a line where body ends? Is there a line between here and there? How about the line between inside and outside?

Pallavi 
No, there is nothing that identifies. Even identifying is a thought and a thought doesn't think.

Ilona 
Take your time looking for the boundary.

Pallavi 
I am unable to conceive of a boundary. When I try I feel like I'm drawing artificial lines to make a boundary. I am unable to conceive of here and there or lines, inside or outside, however hard I try. It seems positively ludicrous when I do! The more I try the more I feel like I'm drawing it there rather than it being there.

Ilona 
Nice. So is there a centre?

Pallavi 
Haha, I can't even conceive of one. Can there even be a centre? I can't even imagine it! Where do I place a centre!
There is no centre.
How can there be a centre of nothing.

Ilona 
Gorgeous. How does it feel to see this?

Pallavi 
It feels great. Nothing really sticks, or occupies . It's so good to be one with the present!
Everything is just same. But the way I see it. Approaching everything with a happy heart, be it pain or fear. It feels great!

Ilona 
Let this sink in
We'll talk tomorrow.

Pallavi 
Sure  Thank you so much!

....................................
Today

Pallavi 
Mornings are always bad. It's like my mind is attacked, and the more I get caught up in the illusion, the more pain I have. Like the lie is not being tolerated. It's a big struggle until it all calms down.

Ilona 
You know what to do- let it pass, don't analyze or fight, open up and say yes to all that wants to pass through.

Pallavi 
Yes

Pallavi 
Thank you so much Ilona. There is so much peace

Ilona 
 is there anything else we can look at or you are ready for the final questions?

Pallavi 
I'm ready

Ilona 
Sweet! Here they are
...
Please answer in full, when ready.
Much love.

Pallavi 
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate self, and there never was. In any way shape or form.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of separate self is belief in the self as a separate entity with a specific identity. It starts from when we are babies, when we are told who we are, shown mirrors to concretize the notion of our bodies, creating our story. We are taught to believe. More and more layers of stories get added as we grow older.
In my own experience, I studied identity as part of my dissertation in Oxford. I started questioning the identity of everything around me.

There was something that was once said which struck me, "Even a washing machine is socially constructed". I had also read Merleau Ponty's 'Phenomenology of Perception'. My looking intensified after a sudden break up with a boyfriend. I tried to mask all my feelings with stories, but I knew they were merely stories. I tried to find true meaning of our existence and why we suffer. I had a dream about liberation and I wrote a story on it. My friend sent me a quote, "the seer remains" after which my looking became permanent, intense and involuntary. I could not rest until I had seen reality. You helped me after this, asking me questions pertaining to my experience in the present. You helped me see, touch, smell, hear and feel, in the present, here and now.

To describe fully as I see it now, has no words. Life is just flowing beautifully and perfectly as it always has been. 'I' cannot see any'thing'. There is just seeing :)The rest are all labels and constructions-thoughts. Nothing ever happened, all that exists is the present moment. Thoughts come and go, and that's all they do.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels peaceful and liberating to see this. Before I started the dialogue, I was anxious and frustrated to see reality. As the dialogue progressed, there was constant, intense looking. There were hard moments when I felt like giving up. There were moments where I saw clearly, almost immediately after the questioning. The past few days has been the time when there was struggle, between the I, the lack of belief in the I, and the dropping of everything. I can truly say now, that there is so much peace and ability to see beauty in everything around me.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The last bit that pushed me over, was when I felt like giving up. And I was asked, 'Is there an I to give up?'. There was a lot of pain, but I was determined. You helped me embrace the pain and frustration and give it love. Giving love gave so much peace. The final bit, was when I had a dream, where I was fighting with my friend. My physical self tried to be present with that dream and it vanished into nothing. That was when I realized, nothing ever happened. Only the present moment exists.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
There is no I/me/you to decide, control or choose events in Life. I'm unable to even think of making something happen. They happen of their own accord. Control, intention, decision, are all stories, designed to make meaning out of experience, deluding us to believe we 'need' it to attach meaning to our lives. Experience happens, it exists and is used, not needed.

I will try to describe an example in the right way without trying to imply a purpose for the happening of experience- Situations occurred, my boyfriend broke up with me, I had the dream, I received the quote- 'the seer remains', and also received an LU video from a friend with enabled this liberation to happen.

6) Anything to add?
Just love, to you, LU and all
If there is anything I can do to help liberate anybody else, I would be most happy to do it.

Pallavi 
For the second question, I was not sure whether you wanted my whole experience or experience of seeing the illusion of the self. I can do the latter more clearly, if that's what you asked


Ilona 
It was delightful to read your answers. I'm smiling speechless.
Let this settle in and when you feel ready, we have a group for guides and you are very welcome to join. It's great you have an intention to pass this on. So many people are coming to the forum these days, it's a whole new big wave.

Would it be ok for me to publish our conversation on my blog, so it may be helpful for someone else. And that lets me see if other guides have any questions.
Lots of love your way!

Pallavi 
Thank you from the bottom of my heart. You're more than welcome to publish this conversation. I'll let you know in a few days when I'm ready  In the mean time I welcome any questions from anyone else. Lots of love to you too!

Ilona 
Is it ok to your name, Pallavi? Where are you on the map?

Pallavi 
Sure you can use my name
I'm from Hyderabad, India

Ilona 
Sounds exotic
What do you do?

Pallavi 
Haha  It might be pleasantly exotic if it weren't 45 degrees cel outside.
I'm studying for the Civil Services exams
but now, it's funny, but it really feels like it doesn't matter
what I do

Ilona 
Send some heat over here, in uk is a bit chilly-15 or so.
Yes, it doesn't matter, but it's nice to get to know you a little bit.

I had a short conversation with Paulo over facebook chat, it took a few days and was light and easy. Paulo was ready as they come...


Paulo 
Hi Ilona how are you? Thanks for accepting my request of friendship.
I'm sending this message because I've read some post in your blog and I'm reading the book of L U, and my current situation is that I know all the theory but not a lot of experience it. Putting in your way, I am at the gate but I haven't crossed it yet. I would like to ask you if you could somehow help me cross it.
Thank you for reading this and for your answer, if you choose to do it.
Take care.

Ilona 
Hi Paulo, thanks for message. What do you expect to experience?

Paulo 
Hi Ilona, I expect to experience the unlimited essence, I Know that we are not this limited idea of self, the ego, in my case known as Paulo, that we are not separate from each other, that all this is just an illusion, but that is also thought, it's just theories, our essence, what we really are can't be put in words only experienced.

Ilona 
Do you exist? If so as what?

Paulo 
The I that is writing this is just an idea, a limited idea living a dream and like a dream it is real for me, this limited idea known as Paulo, but I realize that I am not just that, it is just an illusion, that I am unlimited, even not that I am as I am, so this limited idea doesn't exist it is just a spark, a dust in existence.

Ilona 
Is it I that is reading this?
Can a thought read, write or do anything?

Paulo 
A thought is just a thought in itself it can't do anything, but it can create the illusion of doing, when the identification with it occur, and the limited idea, the dream called Paulo believes it's reading this and writing this and as he believes it's real for him. When i put my self in a observing position the illusion fades away, but then it comes back rapidly. Could this idea Paulo fight back in order to survive? Could it be useful in some way while living in this dream?

Ilona
What is identification? More thoughts?
What is that identifies? Or is it just more thoughts that make up a story?
Does story about identification create an identification? How does it happen exactly? What is that is holding the illusion together?
Investigate this in your experience and write what you notice.

Paulo
Yes identification is more thoughts, and this thoughts are just keeping "me" away from this moment, now, are distracting me from being as I am, making me believe that I have to find my self, my true self, expecting to find release from this limited idea Paulo, that believes that have needs to met, that have obligations with his family, to earn money and all that turmoil keeps away noticing life as it is.

Ilona 
Is "me" more then a thought?

Ilona 
There is no true self. There is nothing to find. How does this make you feel?

Paulo
It makes me feel ok with it, the one that's trying to find something, that's trying to achieve higher meaning in reality doesn't exist, it's just a illusion, a limited idea, a thought appearing in the mind, creating evasion from real life happening as it is. I am now letting go the identification with that thought, that idea in order to let the flow of life lead the way. Sometimes the limited idea, the ego strikes back trying to gain control again, but the duration of it it's getting shorter.

Ilona 
Nice.
There is no ego. It's just a label, that is the same as label character.
There is nothing that is outside of flow trying to control it. It's all one flow, one movement. Is life happening to you or as you? What do you notice here?

Paulo 
Life happens as me, in me and through me, life has no limits, just flowing as it is. Life is whole, is perfect, but even that words can't really express it, because words are limited.

Ilona 
Yes, words are limited when it comes to expressing experience. They are just words, descriptions, not experience itself.
When you look at word being as a noun and as a verb, can you see a difference? Is there a being? Or just being?

Paulo 
No being exists only being as it is, life happening in all its manifestations without no one noticing it, no observer, just observation being done. When the illusion fades away life becomes clear and simple as it is and there's nothing to be done or undone.

Ilona 
Yey! So, can you say that shift has happened or is it still happening? Anything interesting being noticed?

Paulo
In fact there's no shift to happen only a thought about shift happening, the shift shifts. It's all more clear now, still being all the same. Removing the "I" and flowing with life, whatever comes come and that's it.

Ilona
Nice! Was there ever a separate self?

Paulo 
No, the separate self is just an illusion, just a thought that occupied all the space in "our" awareness, when we let it go the unlimited space of existence comes into "our" awareness.
In your opinion is this crossing the gate definitive or sometimes you get caught in the illusion of an "I"?

Ilona 
Can you ever mistaken Santa story for reality? It's just like this. You can get caught up, of course, but, any time you look, it's clear- there is no I in charge.

Paulo 
Yeah There's no "I". How did this releasing changed your life, and the peoples that are near you?

Ilona 
i can't even remember how it was to struggle living with this idea. now i am relaxed and open to whatever comes up. mind is no longer occupied with trying to solve a riddle.
how about you? what is different now since we started this conversation?

Paulo 
It's more clear that there's no I, just another thought. And a bunch of stories related to that "I".

Ilona 
is there any difference in normal situations?

Paulo 
No, they are as they are.

Ilona 
cool. can you say that you have definitely seen that i/ separate self is an illusion?

Paulo 
Yes "I" can say, "I" know it

Ilona
we usually ask some final questions, are you ready for them?

Paulo
You say that this end of illusion is a beginning, beginning for what in your idea?

Ilona 
beginning of falling, all that is not true falls away. system restarts, old beliefs surface to be cleared, beginning of living authentic life without believing in separation. it's an opening to freedom .

Paulo 
Yeah, Ok
"I" resonate with that.
Yes you can make the final questions if you want.

Ilona 
Sweet! Here they are
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?
please take time and answer when ready in full. if you prefer, email to markedeternal@gmail.com

Paulo 
1) There is no "I" just an idea, a thought, a story of "I".

2) This "I" appears when the belief in it occurs, starting in childhood and being reinforced along the way in growing up and adding more points to the story of "I". And this
And this "I" is a good excuse to trying to control life, instead of living it as it is. It's a limited idea that believes it can be better than life itself, even if it means to suffer along the way in order to prove it right.

3)It feels liberating. The difference is let life express itself as it is in all its manifestations and letting go the idea of "I" fade away as any other thought and enjoy the ride of the present moment as it presents .

4) What pushed "me" over was becoming aware of the expectations about what would be awakening.

5) No "I" don't decide anything, just the illusion of deciding could happen. Life is whole as it is, there's nothing to decide about it Decision manifests itself whenever there's decision to be made. One example is the way the L U information become aware to "me", life bring it to me when the conditions for the illusion to go was met.

6) Just to say thank you in helping the clarification of the illusion. And keep doing this wonderful liberation unleashed process. If there's something "I" can do for you say it.

Ilona 
Hi Paulo, thank you for answers.  I can see that you see. I would love to invite you to join LU community on Facebook. But in order to do that I would need to post our conversation on my blog and see if other guides have any questions for you. Would this be ok? I can use any name you like. Sometimes people read these conversations and get it, just from reading..
Let me know, please.
Much love.

Paulo 
Hi Ilona yes, you can post in your blog, could you send me a copy of the post to my email and yes you can put my name.
Stay well, much love.

Ilona
thank you!